Things that Comic Book Fans say that make me Cringe

To answer your #3 question. I'm neither wealthy nor poor, I certainly don't live in a mansion but I do buy whatever comics I like from golden age comics to present and have been doing so for at least 5 decades. Frugalness is a language of its own, fomo doesn't exist in my world, it's a great hobby, it's not for everyone yet anyone can can buy a comic, so goes the hobby.

• Lyle
  
  I value your comment but the position of buying what you like is a finessed position. I just finished an article that is dedicated to the topic. I would really value you comment on that article because a true collector's position on that article would be greatly appreciated. Again it is a very important topic that very few people want to talk about because it is controversial.

Great article, when you say buy what you like, are you saying for collecting and reading purposes that is the point? And that when you’re investing, it’s not necessarily about what you like?

• Mike
  
  Welcome to the boards. Great first comments. Yes if you are investing it is not what you like but rather what others want. I never really liked romance but when people were looking for them and I could find them cheap you but I would buy them during my college years. Buy what you like is a bit trickier. I have just wrote another article that covers this topic only that will go into great detail on this topic. For this article I meant that I have heard people who have overpaid on books use buying what you like as an excuse to justify it. I regularly attend Motor City Comic Con to cover it for GoCollect and you can find a wide range of prices and yet I see one person paid for a book $50 more than they could have got it at the next aisle. They saw it and actually said..well I bought what I like so I guess it was ok....UGH

OK, your article made me so angry, I just had to respond. Here are the reasons why the whole investment side of comic buying is wrong to focus on rather than buying comics for actual enjoyment (duh!). Anyone who is an "investor" is an UNWELCOME part of the overall problem that has destroyed a hobby I once loved.

The 1993 comics crash happened BECAUSE OF speculators / investors! If just the collectors were buying comics they liked and those speculators / investors werent there, Marvel NEVER would have pandered to the buyers by flooding the racks with holofoil covers, gimmicks and first issues. Marvel was greedy because of the greed of those buying all those "hot" comics they DIDNT like! The newsstand market went kaput when the COLLECTORS could no longer keep up with being bombarded with too many first issues and overpriced gimmicks! And the speculators / investors immediately left when the collector infrastructure was no longer there! The investors were only there for the MONEY and that's the root of the problem. They won't support a hobby if its not profitable because they don't like comics like the collectors do. Investing and Marvel's greedy pandering to that investing is what almost killed the hobby!

Another big problem is CGC. They single handedly RUINED a hobby that was being enjoyed by countless thousands of comic collectors until THEY came along! Why is CGC a problem? Number one, their "grading" service artificially inflates the value of comics. From the grading cost plus postage of about $30 or more that has to be added to the price of every graded comic to recoup that HUGE loss, to the false assurance that CGC actually grades comics accurately (they don't). CGC grading is all over the board. There is no real consistency to their grading, nor do they make such a claim. People naively call them "professional" graders but CGC never made such a claim. Everyone knows CGC grading is a joke but as long as the investors keep supporting the company because they don't care about the actual product they're selling the CGC scam will continue.

Overstreet is also to blame because the former authority of comic pricing and grading sold out to CGC, who disrespected him by NOT following his already established and accepted grading standards. And to make matters worse, CGC HAS NO published grading standards! Do you really believe a 9 8 comic can have a miswrapped cover? I sure don't! But CGC allows it! You know why? Because money talks and it's in their best interest to give comic retailers and investors those 9.8's. CGC is shady as hell and everyone knows it! Before CGC, we already had the Overstreet grades that worked just fine. Now, we have TWO sets of grades. For what good reason do we need numerical grades with those IRRITATING points! I'm so tired of reading and saying POINT this and POINT that! And let's not forget that because of CGC and all those investors artificially driving up comic prices for comics they DONT REALLY LIKE, Overstreet PANDERED to that bad element ONCE AGAIN by raising all the values of NM comics in the Overstreet price guide when he changed all the listed prices from NM to NM-. In one fell swoop Overstreet raised all the values in the guide, NOT because of anything other than CGC and those investors! So now us collectors have to pay more for every comic book we buy, not because of collector demand, but because of the CGC/ Overstreet / investor cabal that has HIJACKED our Hobby and made it harder for us all to complete our collections! GREED is the reason comics are so expensive today, and the collectors who have to pay more are suffering for it!

• Sean
  
  Your passion for the hobby is outstanding. I was once like you until I realized that as with all things there is more complexity to the situation than what we think. Collectors who never ever will sell their collection are practically nil. Collections are deemed by the IRS as alternative investments and you have to look at it as such even though you do not want to do so. AS an attorney who handles probate cases I have represented estates where collections that were NEVER EVER meant to be sold still have to be looked at as an investment. Collections have value regardless at how you look at it and have to be treated as such. I have tried to argue collections as noninvestments to both judges and the IRS and they only laughed at me so again they are by their definitions alternative investments.
  
  Another aspect you seem to miss is that investors have been the lifeblood of the comic book industry for years. The numbers of comics published as been on a steady decline for years with the target demographic increasing in age. Comic book publishers, stores, and others who rely upon the sale of comics need that cash influx to stay in business. I hated these individuals too in the 1990s for what they did to the hobby I love, and then I looked around and saw all those stores closing when those investors left. The hobby needs that money because they cannot make it on just collectors. I am also a member of a collectors group and some of those groups have indicated that the price of comics has them cutting down on their targets. That is not good news to publishers so they must raise prices again because the buying population has decreased. I also love baseball and believe that all you need to be entertained is the game but stadiums and team owners place ferris wheels, video game arcades and other attractions to entertain fans because the game is not enough to keep the team afloat. The game needs all fans and not just the ones who love the game.
  
  Finally I hated CGC years ago. People put what I thought a value on the books that was just not there. Then I realized that the hobby had changed and that with the increase in online buying. Gone were the days when the grade could be discussed between two comic book hobbyists. People mistake CGC's place in the hobby. I have done a series of articles on the grading process and collectors who used them for the first time. Most valued that their books were now preserved with a grade that will last. Is the grade the final word? No because there is a human component to it, but what each of these collectors realized was that CGC was an impartial arbitrator between potential buyer and seller. Collectors who purchased their books years ago now had an uninvolved third party's opinion on the book. That is what CGC is for the hobby. A third party arbitrator is now required in the hobby. That is again what I state in those articles on grading, that a 9.0 ungraded and graded copy should warrant the same price, but if you are going to sell the book online or in person then you may want to have it graded. As a collector though the grading is a benefit to the non sellers in that the condition of the book is at least established by a third party. You made a comment about exceptions that were allowable....I saw years ago an auction house state that the book is in VF condition except for the staple pops and missing centerfold. Grading standards thus became subjective even though we have standards. The problems is not all adhere to those standards.
  
  I serve as an attorney for my day job. parties see things from a different perspective. The need for a third party is thus sometimes justified. I know that several auction houses who describe their books and will buy them from these people raw with 95 percent certainty that things will be as described. Others have caused me to question who inspected the GD book and deemed it to be VF-. This is important when you are purchasing a Batman 181 and it looks great and you see it and it looks as described and the person says it is complete but never knew there was a centerfold.
  
  Collectors are a valuable part of the community but so are investors. Without them the hobby would contract to the point it might not be viable. The choice I then ask you is would you rather lose the investors and risk the hobby going the way of the dinosaur or would you want them if your hobby could still be what it is today? I write this as I just received an email that a bookstore I loved is closing because they could only survive with a coffee shop in it, but those people were lost when a competitor opened up nearby. I hate coffee and loved the store....

  • Comics may be technically assets in a legal sense, but they were never meant to be preserved as such. They were printed on newsprint paper and there was no thought by the publishers to produce them for long term investing. Historically comics were thought to be short term entertainment for children. Toys also have asset value but does anyone think toys should be thought of as anything other than what they were originally intended for? You can't see the forest for the trees because you've developed a wall street mentality that obfuscates the true meaning of why people collect collectibles in the first place. Just like the DC comics implosion of the late 70's, the independent comics crash of the mid 80's, and the big comics crash of the mid 90's, when the collector base no longer likes what is being produced and stops supporting it, it doesn't matter how many investors are buying, the comics market WILL crash. You have it all turned around. The speculators / investors caused the crashes in the first place. Marvel ruined the newsstand and direct sale markets because of the BUBBLE that those speculators / investors created. If the newsstand market had not been destroyed Marvel wouldn't have had to file for bankruptcy and comic shops would have had enough customers to stay in business. It all goes back to those speculators/ investors. So now we should WELCOME that element that made the comics market crash in the first place? Just because we HAVE TO now because the collectors are no longer there? Even though Marvel comics SUCK today, which has driven new collectors away? That's insanity to me. Without bringing in the collecrors that actually enjoy what you're selling, that life support system is doomed to failure. The speculators / investors are just proping up something that is already dead then. Marvel movies won't be popular forever. Make comics much better and more accessible in creative ways, and the collectors might return.
    
    I think the Marvel movies should be bringing in collectors, not just investors. But Marvel and DC have not tried to bring back the comics market in any meaningful or creative way. I think social media and a community approach would do a lot to save comics. Like the roll playing gamers get together in comic shops, Marvel could have a community atmosphere to their website where collectors could talk about the happenings in their favorite comics. Make contests where the winners win money or comics (it would be like CBR but MUCH better and MUCH more interactive). Comic shops need to be more multi media entertainment stores where comics are a part. Or maybe bookstores could have a bigger comics presence also with Marvel (and DC) advertising to bring them in as well as the social media aspect. And if that isn't enough, then Marvel can promote selling comics direct to the public and pass the savings on to them (Howwever, i dont think online comics will ever be the way to go). Advertise Marvel subscriptions on social media and advertise the Marvel website as a community atmosphere that is really fun and interactive. Turn comics into an online social media movement for young people under 30 to have a positive place ro hang out online. But, of course, Marvel would have to GREATLY improve their product, get the "woke" politics out of comics, and make comics that are truly entertaining and not so slow paced and BORING again! Improve the art (Anime scribbles dont cut it) and story so it doesn't insult the intelligence of the readers (But don't make them R rated gore fests!). I admit it's a TALL order since Marvel is now owned by clueless "woke" Disney, but I know it COULD be done in concept. 'Nuff said!

    • Sean
      
      You always bring passion to your arguments without being rude so I always love to respond to your posts.
      
      hey I get it...I am a collector at heart. The problem is that even though I want things the way they used to be I cannot get the IRS or others to do it. I still buy DVDs and Blu Ray discs and do not have digital movies and had only recently left cable tv (last week). I am a die hard wish it was in the past but that is not the case and the only thing I can do is play in the ball field that I have left. And yes toys are assets because do you know how many times I draft a divorce agreement where toys are listed as assets that go with what family member. Again I see them as toys but it is what it is.
      
      You also have it right that if the collectors do not like what is produced the collectors will abandon the hobby, but it will not crash. Many collectors have given up on the books after a certain period and instead collect those from the age that they believe was what they appreciate. If comics were not produced there still would be collectors and investors left (PS I Have article that was just completed yesterday that covers the segments of the market that goes into great depth these groups). Some may leave but others will not. Cabbage patch dolls do not really have current product and yet I still see collectors out there buying them as well as investors.
      
      DC and Marvel have had a chance to make comics and promote them in movies and elsewhere. They do not because they see that it is but a small market. I am constantly researching for my articles and I was amazed to see the in the silver age 200-300k print runs were common. These high numbers continued even in the bronze and late copper age in the 90s. What happened though was comics lost their flavor, not because of the investors, speculators, or what was published. Instead it was because there was more offering for kids. They could play video games and watch movies at home and now on their phones. This caused many to leave or never get into the hobby. I know many a passionate collector who tried to get their kids into the hobby but could not. Comic companies did try to move comics online to create social groups but it did not have that great effect. I regularly mention stores and auction houses around the country that are innovative in trying to bring new collectors into the hobby to help them out but again the numbers are not that great. LCS fight for every dollar they can get. Books stores that once had comics now have TPB and even then they get sold at discount houses because no one really buys them in great volumes. These stores are struggling too and closing up so having product that but a small market wants is not cost effective. Print runs are now in the 40 to 15k for book as a result.
      
      I would love to do all that you said and see collectors driving the market but that is not the case. An investor or speculator can go into a LCS or auction and drop 10-15k at one sitting and that keeps the people going. I represented one person who dropped REGULARLY 35k at higher end auctions and he is leaving the hobby. He would go into a LCS and spend 500 because he was bored. HIs money is now gone and those LCS will miss him. He also would retain me to buy books for him as a fiduciary buyer.
      
      Sean again I love your views and wish they were possible but the sandbox changed and there are new players in it. It is kind of like a community where you may not like those hipsters or investors who are buying property but the alternative might be that no one buys the homes and the neighborhood dies a slow agonizing death. Areas of Detroit have more vacant lots that look like parks than homes because people left. Those that remain are forced to remember only the good old days and hope one day they come back but decades later it does not look like that will happen.